Discussion:
MOTION: French visa for Samson Goddy to attend 10-year Anniversary Scratch Conf / 50-year Anniversary of Logo
(too old to reply)
Adam Holt
2017-06-04 11:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Please all who can support this motion, thank you for doing so, once [XXX]
is clarified below:

"To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by [XXX]."

Where [XXX] could be Scratch, Sugar Labs, or Samson Goddy -- accountants
don't like financial mystery meat, for very good reason ;)
Samson Goddy
2017-06-04 18:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't get
the visa.

What are the "XXX" for?

On Jun 4, 2017 12:58 PM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

Please all who can support this motion, thank you for doing so, once [XXX]
is clarified below:

"To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by [XXX]."

Where [XXX] could be Scratch, Sugar Labs, or Samson Goddy -- accountants
don't like financial mystery meat, for very good reason ;)

Regards
Adam Holt
2017-06-04 18:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
> get the visa.
>

My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:

"To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson Goddy."

Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion, thereby
helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
Walter Bender
2017-06-05 19:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
>> get the visa.
>>
>
> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
> things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>
> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
> France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
> Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
> including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
> required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
> Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
> unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
> attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson Goddy."
>
> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion, thereby
> helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
only way to get unstuck.

-walter

--
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
<http://www.sugarlabs.org>
Adam Holt
2017-06-07 11:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,

Can you please try to vote yes or no today as Samson would need to fly to
Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday latest, to get everything in motion)
so does need to know what's happening ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks
All for your consideration!*


On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
>>> get the visa.
>>>
>>
>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
>> things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>
>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
>> France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
>> Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
>> including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
>> required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
>> Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
>> unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
>> attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson Goddy."
>>
>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>>
> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
> only way to get unstuck.
>
> -walter
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>
Adam Holt
2017-06-09 10:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,

Can you please try to vote yes or no


Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!

(As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)


today

as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*


On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
>>> get the visa.
>>>
>>
>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
>> things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>
>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
>> France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
>> Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
>> including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
>> required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
>> Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
>> unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
>> attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson Goddy."
>>
>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>>
> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
> only way to get unstuck.
>
> -walter
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>
Adam Holt
2017-06-09 10:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Jun 9, 2017 6:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,

Can you please try to vote yes or no


Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!

(As you


...and we were (:

elected

to do, setting a tone for forward action — in whatever direction your
conscience takes you — Thanks All!)


today

as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*


On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
>>> get the visa.
>>>
>>
>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
>> things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>
>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
>> France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
>> Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
>> including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
>> required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
>> Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
>> unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from
>> attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson Goddy."
>>
>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>>
> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
> only way to get unstuck.
>
> -walter
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>
Sameer Verma
2017-06-10 01:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
+1

Sameer

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 3:30 AM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>
> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>
>
> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>
> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in whatever
> direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>
>
> today
>
> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday latest,
> to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening ASAP as
> the wkd approaches, Thanks All for your consideration!
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
>>>> get the visa.
>>>
>>>
>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
>>> things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>
>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in Bordeaux,
>>> France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with Scratch, Sugar
>>> Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining a French visa,
>>> including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as many days as
>>> required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the Software
>>> Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French government very
>>> unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing him from attending
>>> Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson Goddy."
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>
>>
>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>> only way to get unstuck.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>
>



--
Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Professor, Information Systems
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
Samson Goddy
2017-06-12 12:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote. It is
very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to travel to
lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the motion.

Samson G

On Jun 9, 2017 11:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>
> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>
>
> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>
> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
> whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>
>
> today
>
> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
> latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
> ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i didn't
>>>> get the visa.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That makes
>>> things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>
>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in
>>> Bordeaux, France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with
>>> Scratch, Sugar Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining
>>> a French visa, including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as
>>> many days as required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the
>>> Software Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French
>>> government very unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing
>>> him from attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson
>>> Goddy."
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>
>>>
>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>> only way to get unstuck.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLOBs mailing list
> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>
>
Adam Holt
2017-06-12 12:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote.
>

Thanks you Ignacio, Lionel & Laura if you can please vote Yes or No
immediately !!

PS i (presume) this motion expires 3:28 PM NYC Time today, in 7+ hours from
now, i.e. exactly 1 week after it was seconded and voting began.


> It is very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to travel
> to lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the motion.
>
> Samson G
>
> On Jun 9, 2017 11:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>
>> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>>
>> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>>
>>
>> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>>
>> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
>> whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>>
>>
>> today
>>
>> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
>> latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
>> ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*
>>
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i
>>>>> didn't get the visa.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That
>>>> makes things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>>
>>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in
>>>> Bordeaux, France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with
>>>> Scratch, Sugar Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining
>>>> a French visa, including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as
>>>> many days as required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the
>>>> Software Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French
>>>> government very unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing
>>>> him from attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson
>>>> Goddy."
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>>> only way to get unstuck.
>>>
>>> -walter
>>>
>>> --
>>> Walter Bender
>>> Sugar Labs
>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLOBs mailing list
>> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>>
>>


--
Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ http://unleashkids.org !
Ignacio Rodríguez
2017-06-12 12:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sorry I did not reply before.

It's a yes (+1) for me.
Let's hope everyone votes now!


Thanks,
Ignacio

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote.
>>
>
> Thanks you Ignacio, Lionel & Laura if you can please vote Yes or No
> immediately !!
>
> PS i (presume) this motion expires 3:28 PM NYC Time today, in 7+ hours
> from now, i.e. exactly 1 week after it was seconded and voting began.
>
>
>> It is very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to
>> travel to lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the
>> motion.
>>
>> Samson G
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2017 11:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>>>
>>> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>>>
>>>
>>> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>>>
>>> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
>>> whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>>>
>>>
>>> today
>>>
>>> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
>>> latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
>>> ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i
>>>>>> didn't get the visa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That
>>>>> makes things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>>>
>>>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in
>>>>> Bordeaux, France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with
>>>>> Scratch, Sugar Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining
>>>>> a French visa, including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as
>>>>> many days as required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the
>>>>> Software Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French
>>>>> government very unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing
>>>>> him from attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson
>>>>> Goddy."
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>>>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>>>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>>>> only way to get unstuck.
>>>>
>>>> -walter
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Walter Bender
>>>> Sugar Labs
>>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>>> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLOBs mailing list
>>> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ http://unleashkids.org !
>
Adam Holt
2017-06-12 12:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Ignacio Rodríguez <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sorry I did not reply before.
>
> It's a yes (+1) for me.
> Let's hope everyone votes now!
>

Yes! This motion will pass (4 out of 7 votes is the bare minimum) with a
big thanks to all for staying engaged in support of Sugar Labs, until all
votes are counted, such that all sincerely held perspectives are respected,
one way or another!

Have a great trip Samson and let's hope the French govt cooperates in
understanding free/open learning from a truly global perspective~

*PS plz let us know your favorite non-Facebook channels if poss, in
addition to your outreach work on FB?*


Thanks,
> Ignacio
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks you Ignacio, Lionel & Laura if you can please vote Yes or No
>> immediately !!
>>
>> PS i (presume) this motion expires 3:28 PM NYC Time today, in 7+ hours
>> from now, i.e. exactly 1 week after it was seconded and voting began.
>>
>>
>>> It is very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to
>>> travel to lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the
>>> motion.
>>>
>>> Samson G
>>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2017 11:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>>>>
>>>> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>>>>
>>>> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
>>>> whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> today
>>>>
>>>> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
>>>> latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
>>>> ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i
>>>>>>> didn't get the visa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That
>>>>>> makes things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in
>>>>>> Bordeaux, France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with
>>>>>> Scratch, Sugar Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining
>>>>>> a French visa, including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as
>>>>>> many days as required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the
>>>>>> Software Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French
>>>>>> government very unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing
>>>>>> him from attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson
>>>>>> Goddy."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>>>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>>>>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>>>>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>>>>> only way to get unstuck.
>>>>>
>>>>> -walter
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Walter Bender
>>>>> Sugar Labs
>>>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SLOBs mailing list
>>>> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ http://unleashkids.org !
>>
>> --
>> Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ http://unleashkids.org !
>>
>
Samson Goddy
2017-06-13 20:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Jun 12, 2017 1:33 PM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Ignacio Rodríguez <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sorry I did not reply before.
>
> It's a yes (+1) for me.
> Let's hope everyone votes now!
>

Yes! This motion will pass (4 out of 7 votes is the bare minimum) with a
big thanks to all for staying engaged in support of Sugar Labs, until all
votes are counted, such that all sincerely held perspectives are respected,
one way or another!

Have a great trip Samson and let's hope the French govt cooperates in
understanding free/open learning from a truly global perspective~

Thanks, i am hoping too.


*PS plz let us know your favorite non-Facebook channels if poss, in
addition to your outreach work on FB?*

I will create a blog, then post on wiki if that will help.




Thanks,
> Ignacio
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks you Ignacio, Lionel & Laura if you can please vote Yes or No
>> immediately !!
>>
>> PS i (presume) this motion expires 3:28 PM NYC Time today, in 7+ hours
>> from now, i.e. exactly 1 week after it was seconded and voting began.
>>
>>
>>> It is very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to
>>> travel to lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the
>>> motion.
>>>
>>> Samson G
>>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2017 11:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>>>>
>>>> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>>>>
>>>> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
>>>> whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> today
>>>>
>>>> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
>>>> latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
>>>> ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i
>>>>>>> didn't get the visa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That
>>>>>> makes things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in
>>>>>> Bordeaux, France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with
>>>>>> Scratch, Sugar Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining
>>>>>> a French visa, including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as
>>>>>> many days as required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the
>>>>>> Software Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French
>>>>>> government very unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing
>>>>>> him from attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson
>>>>>> Goddy."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>>>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>>>>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>>>>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>>>>> only way to get unstuck.
>>>>>
>>>>> -walter
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Walter Bender
>>>>> Sugar Labs
>>>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SLOBs mailing list
>>>> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ http://unleashkids.org !
>>
>> --
>> Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ http://unleashkids.org !
>>
>
Sebastian Silva
2017-06-13 16:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Samson,

I hope you will have a successful travel.

As a member of Sugar Labs and one of the signataries of our Fiscal
Sponsorship Agreement with the Software Freedom Conservancy
<https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/f/fa/AmendedFSASugar.pdf> I would
appreciate if during your trip you would remember that we have a duty as
a Conservancy Project to respect its /"organizational mission and
charitable goal to promote, improve, develop and defend//
//Free, Libre, and Open Source Software projects."/

Keep in mind we agreed (section 2b) : /"The Project Will Be Free
Software. Conservancy and the Oversight Board agree that any//
//and all software and/or documentation distributed by the Project will
be distributed //*solely *//as Free Software." (emphasis added)./

It would be a sad thing (if not a breach of contract) if the community
(as represented by you) would present itself as indifferent to these values.

Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not
fit with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not
promote these entities while representing Sugar Labs.

Regards,

Sebastian


On 12/06/17 07:07, Samson Goddy wrote:
> To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote.
> It is very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to
> travel to lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to
> the motion.
>
Samson Goddy
2017-06-13 17:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Jun 13, 2017 5:45 PM, "Sebastian Silva" <***@fuentelibre.org>
wrote:

Hi Samson,

I hope you will have a successful travel.

Thanks Sebastian.

As a member of Sugar Labs and one of the signataries of our Fiscal
Sponsorship Agreement with the Software Freedom Conservancy
<https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/f/fa/AmendedFSASugar.pdf> I would
appreciate if during your trip you would remember that we have a duty as a
Conservancy Project to respect its *"organizational mission and charitable
goal to promote, improve, develop and defend*
*Free, Libre, and Open Source Software projects."*

Keep in mind we agreed (section 2b) : *"The Project Will Be Free Software.
Conservancy and the Oversight Board agree that any*
*and all software and/or documentation distributed by the Project will be
distributed **solely **as Free Software." (emphasis added).*

It would be a sad thing (if not a breach of contract) if the community (as
represented by you) would present itself as indifferent to these values.

Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit
with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote
these entities while representing Sugar Labs.

Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did you
think i might breach the agreement?

Regards,

Sebastian

On 12/06/17 07:07, Samson Goddy wrote:

To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote. It is
very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to travel to
lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the motion.
Caryl Bigenho
2017-06-13 18:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi All...


Sebastian wrote, "Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote these entities while representing Sugar Labs."


Huh??? It seems since the goal of Sugarizer is to make it available FREE to run on "any device" that includes iPhones, Windows devices, etc. This comment of his doesn't make any sense! What about FREE/Libre software doesn't he understand???


Caryl


P.S. I proudly run Sugarizer on my iPhone!

________________________________
From: IAEP <iaep-***@lists.sugarlabs.org> on behalf of Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 10:50:15 AM
To: Sebastian Silva
Cc: SLOBs; iaep; Sugar-dev Devel; OLPC para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y administradores
Subject: Re: [IAEP] [SLOBS] [Sugar-devel] MOTION: French visa for Samson Goddy to attend 10-year Anniversary Scratch Conf / 50-year Anniversary of Logo



On Jun 13, 2017 5:45 PM, "Sebastian Silva" <***@fuentelibre.org<mailto:***@fuentelibre.org>> wrote:

Hi Samson,

I hope you will have a successful travel.

Thanks Sebastian.

As a member of Sugar Labs and one of the signataries of our Fiscal Sponsorship Agreement with the Software Freedom Conservancy<https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/f/fa/AmendedFSASugar.pdf> I would appreciate if during your trip you would remember that we have a duty as a Conservancy Project to respect its "organizational mission and charitable goal to promote, improve, develop and defend
Free, Libre, and Open Source Software projects."

Keep in mind we agreed (section 2b) : "The Project Will Be Free Software. Conservancy and the Oversight Board agree that any
and all software and/or documentation distributed by the Project will be distributed solely as Free Software." (emphasis added).

It would be a sad thing (if not a breach of contract) if the community (as represented by you) would present itself as indifferent to these values.

Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote these entities while representing Sugar Labs.

Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did you think i might breach the agreement?

Regards,

Sebastian

On 12/06/17 07:07, Samson Goddy wrote:
To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote. It is very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to travel to lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the motion.
Sebastian Silva
2017-06-13 18:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 13/06/17 12:50, Samson Goddy wrote:
>
> Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do
> not fit with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if
> you do not promote these entities while representing Sugar Labs.
>
> Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did
> you think i might breach the agreement?

While your promoting these entities does not breach the wording of the
agreement, I believe it goes against the spirit of it. Please review
information on GNU.org such as the following articles, to understand why
such technologies are distributed in bad faith.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.html
https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

On the other hand, these Sugar Activities (by you) don't have proper
sources available. This actually is a breach of the agreement, and they
should have been removed:

http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759
http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4758

In accordance to the license file on those .xo bundles, I request that
you share the source for the .swf Flash components embedded if you wrote
them, otherwise please make sure they are removed from ASLO.

Regards,
Sebastian
Samuel Greenfeld
2017-06-13 18:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
My experience with the SFC is that while they like to do license
enforcement, they are not platform purists. If you look at the bottom of
sfconservancy.org they have their own social media accounts.


The ".fla" file at least in #4758 actually may be the source code in binary
format. I do not have access to a copy of Shockwave to verify that.
But without knowing the license for the flash content (unless Samson knows
the source; the README is for a different .fla, and I cannot find it) it is
unclear if the bundle as a whole can be GPL v3 licensed.

I do not recall having an active ASLO account to check the other activity
in question.


On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Sebastian Silva <***@fuentelibre.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 13/06/17 12:50, Samson Goddy wrote:
>
> Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit
> with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote
> these entities while representing Sugar Labs.
>
> Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did you
> think i might breach the agreement?
>
>
> While your promoting these entities does not breach the wording of the
> agreement, I believe it goes against the spirit of it. Please review
> information on GNU.org such as the following articles, to understand why
> such technologies are distributed in bad faith.
>
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.html
> https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
>
> On the other hand, these Sugar Activities (by you) don't have proper
> sources available. This actually is a breach of the agreement, and they
> should have been removed:
>
> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759
> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4758
>
> In accordance to the license file on those .xo bundles, I request that you
> share the source for the .swf Flash components embedded if you wrote them,
> otherwise please make sure they are removed from ASLO.
>
> Regards,
> Sebastian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
Sameer Verma
2017-06-13 20:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Samuel Greenfeld <***@greenfeld.org> wrote:
> My experience with the SFC is that while they like to do license
> enforcement, they are not platform purists. If you look at the bottom of
> sfconservancy.org they have their own social media accounts.
>

I completely agree with this. To say that it's all Free Software and
nothing else is a mis-characterization. To take this extreme
fundamentalist viewpoint would imply not being able to use web servers
like Apache (Open Source, but not Free software).

Sameer
--
Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Professor, Information Systems
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/

>
> The ".fla" file at least in #4758 actually may be the source code in binary
> format. I do not have access to a copy of Shockwave to verify that.
> But without knowing the license for the flash content (unless Samson knows
> the source; the README is for a different .fla, and I cannot find it) it is
> unclear if the bundle as a whole can be GPL v3 licensed.
>
> I do not recall having an active ASLO account to check the other activity in
> question.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Sebastian Silva <***@fuentelibre.org>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13/06/17 12:50, Samson Goddy wrote:
>>
>> Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit
>> with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote
>> these entities while representing Sugar Labs.
>>
>> Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did you
>> think i might breach the agreement?
>>
>>
>> While your promoting these entities does not breach the wording of the
>> agreement, I believe it goes against the spirit of it. Please review
>> information on GNU.org such as the following articles, to understand why
>> such technologies are distributed in bad faith.
>>
>> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.html
>> https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html
>> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
>>
>> On the other hand, these Sugar Activities (by you) don't have proper
>> sources available. This actually is a breach of the agreement, and they
>> should have been removed:
>>
>> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759
>> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4758
>>
>> In accordance to the license file on those .xo bundles, I request that you
>> share the source for the .swf Flash components embedded if you wrote them,
>> otherwise please make sure they are removed from ASLO.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sebastian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLOBs mailing list
> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>
D. Joe
2017-06-13 21:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Open Source and Free Software are not mutually exclusive terms.

Perhaps you are thinking of the distinctions between copyleft software
versus permissively licensed software?

For those to whom this is old news, please forgive this brief review, but it
seems important at this point to get it out there to some who are unfamiliar
with it:

Historically speaking, the Debian Free Software Guidelines[1] (DFSG) are a
bridge between the concept of free software as the Free Software Foundation
casts it[2] and as the Open Source Initiative casts it[3], in that the FSF
came first,[4] then the Linux kernel and distributions of it like Debian,
then the OSI developed their definition from the DFSG.

To take a more inductive approach, consider the broad overlap of software,
including Apache, that are released under licenses that qualify both as Open
Source by the OSD[5] and as free software[6].

I'm afraid that anyone who has taken Sugar Labs use of the term "free" to
mean only "availabe-at-no-charge" has been laboring under a
misunderstanding. This is, in essence, why I find the broader construction
"free and open source software" to be not so problematic as other FSF
members.

Using "open source" provides at least some signal for disambiguation, for
those who wish to understand better what we mean when we talk about
developing, distributing, using, teaching, and learning with this kind of
software.

I think it's fair to ask, especially in an organization that has outreach so
thoroughly baked into its work, how purist we should be. For my own part,
I'm fine with going out to try to meet people where they're starting and
where they live, just so long as we know, acknowledge, remember, and work
towards bringing them back along with us to where we think everyone deserves
to be, which is, in short, to be free.

--
Joe

[1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
[2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
[3] https://opensource.org/osd-annotated
[4] It's fair to say that what we refer to as free and open source software
has antecedents to which it is reasonable to back propagate these
labels, but given the larger misunderstandings in this topic I'd rather
not quibble over these questions of precedent, terminology, and history
just yet.
[5] https://opensource.org/licenses
[6] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 01:13:04PM -0700, Sameer Verma wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Samuel Greenfeld <***@greenfeld.org> wrote:
> > My experience with the SFC is that while they like to do license
> > enforcement, they are not platform purists. If you look at the bottom of
> > sfconservancy.org they have their own social media accounts.
> >
>
> I completely agree with this. To say that it's all Free Software and
> nothing else is a mis-characterization. To take this extreme
> fundamentalist viewpoint would imply not being able to use web servers
> like Apache (Open Source, but not Free software).
>
> Sameer
> --
> Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
> Professor, Information Systems
> San Francisco State University
> http://verma.sfsu.edu/
>
> >
> > The ".fla" file at least in #4758 actually may be the source code in binary
> > format. I do not have access to a copy of Shockwave to verify that.
> > But without knowing the license for the flash content (unless Samson knows
> > the source; the README is for a different .fla, and I cannot find it) it is
> > unclear if the bundle as a whole can be GPL v3 licensed.
> >
> > I do not recall having an active ASLO account to check the other activity in
> > question.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Sebastian Silva <***@fuentelibre.org>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 13/06/17 12:50, Samson Goddy wrote:
> >>
> >> Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit
> >> with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote
> >> these entities while representing Sugar Labs.
> >>
> >> Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did you
> >> think i might breach the agreement?
> >>
> >>
> >> While your promoting these entities does not breach the wording of the
> >> agreement, I believe it goes against the spirit of it. Please review
> >> information on GNU.org such as the following articles, to understand why
> >> such technologies are distributed in bad faith.
> >>
> >> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.html
> >> https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html
> >> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
> >>
> >> On the other hand, these Sugar Activities (by you) don't have proper
> >> sources available. This actually is a breach of the agreement, and they
> >> should have been removed:
> >>
> >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759
> >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4758
> >>
> >> In accordance to the license file on those .xo bundles, I request that you
> >> share the source for the .swf Flash components embedded if you wrote them,
> >> otherwise please make sure they are removed from ASLO.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Sebastian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sugar-devel mailing list
> >> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SLOBs mailing list
> > ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

--
--
Joe On ceding power to tech companies: http://xkcd.com/1118/
man screen | grep -A2 weird
A weird imagination is most useful to gain full advantage of
all the features.
Tony Anderson
2017-06-14 05:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
It must be a sign of a mature organization that it has so much time to
devote to this. Keep in mind, Samson is going to a Scratch conference.
As I understand it, Scratch is now based on Flash. The nature of Flash
makes 'open source' and 'free software' a bit problematic.

Tony

On 06/13/2017 11:37 PM, D. Joe wrote:
> Open Source and Free Software are not mutually exclusive terms.
>
> Perhaps you are thinking of the distinctions between copyleft software
> versus permissively licensed software?
>
> For those to whom this is old news, please forgive this brief review, but it
> seems important at this point to get it out there to some who are unfamiliar
> with it:
>
> Historically speaking, the Debian Free Software Guidelines[1] (DFSG) are a
> bridge between the concept of free software as the Free Software Foundation
> casts it[2] and as the Open Source Initiative casts it[3], in that the FSF
> came first,[4] then the Linux kernel and distributions of it like Debian,
> then the OSI developed their definition from the DFSG.
>
> To take a more inductive approach, consider the broad overlap of software,
> including Apache, that are released under licenses that qualify both as Open
> Source by the OSD[5] and as free software[6].
>
> I'm afraid that anyone who has taken Sugar Labs use of the term "free" to
> mean only "availabe-at-no-charge" has been laboring under a
> misunderstanding. This is, in essence, why I find the broader construction
> "free and open source software" to be not so problematic as other FSF
> members.
>
> Using "open source" provides at least some signal for disambiguation, for
> those who wish to understand better what we mean when we talk about
> developing, distributing, using, teaching, and learning with this kind of
> software.
>
> I think it's fair to ask, especially in an organization that has outreach so
> thoroughly baked into its work, how purist we should be. For my own part,
> I'm fine with going out to try to meet people where they're starting and
> where they live, just so long as we know, acknowledge, remember, and work
> towards bringing them back along with us to where we think everyone deserves
> to be, which is, in short, to be free.
>
James Cameron
2017-06-14 09:14:35 UTC
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On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:06:06AM +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
> It must be a sign of a mature organization that it has so much time
> to devote to this.

It helps them avoid real work, like maintaining activities. ;-)

> Keep in mind, Samson is going to a Scratch conference. As I
> understand it, Scratch is now based on Flash.

No, Scratch 2.0 is based on ActionScript, which is a dialect of
ECMAScript.

Yes, ActionScript is implemented in Adobe Flash Player, and thus in
Adobe Air, but also in Apache Flex under the Apache License.

Yes, Adobe Flash Player can be used to "play".

But I wouldn't say it was "based on Flash", and I'd expect some of the
contributors to Scratch if they were here to be enthusiastic in their
reply.

Scratch 2.0 is most certainly GPLv2.

https://github.com/LLK/scratch-flash

> The nature of Flash makes 'open source' and 'free software' a bit
> problematic.

Yes, but not impossible to navigate.

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
D. Joe
2017-06-14 20:07:21 UTC
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On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:06:06AM +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:

> It must be a sign of a mature organization that it has so much time to
> devote to this.

Dealing with the strictures of the law and of various agreements is not, as
you might cast it, some luxury that we are indulging in.

This is one of the more frustrating things for me in this type of
discussion, running up against the attitude that the challenges of
copyrights and licenses are somehow created by, or somehow the fault of,
those of us who usually are just trying to navigate them as freely as we
can, trying to make sure that our collaborative peers, and that those
downstream of us, get the same freedom.

FOSS advocates didn't create copyright, and we certainly didn't create the
situation where copyright restrictions attach to a work AUTOMATICALLY at the
time of its creation.[1] Since these restrictions arise automatically, the
need to have a license to use the works legally (in most cases) also arises
automatically.

Fortunately, as constraining as the situation is, its basics are also pretty
clear, so once someone's unfamiliarity is revealed, it can be addressed.

tl;dr: I'm sorry you're just now learning how horrible the default situation
is, but now that you know, I hope you can continue to work to make it less
horrible. One way you can do that is by refraining from comments like those
quoted above.

[1] in the US since it became party to the Berne convention on copyright in
1988 (effective 1989)

--
D. Joe
Tony Anderson
2017-06-15 05:20:16 UTC
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Raw Message
This thread still refers to Samson Goddy obtaining a visa to attend a
Scratch Conference in Bordeaux France. I still have
no idea how this thread got distracted to discussing details of software
licensing. The primary issue here is whether or not
he can get a visa and can attend the conference.

I realize the issue of 'intellectual property' is serious and worthy of
discussion in its own right, but off topic here, in my opinion.

Tony

On 06/14/2017 10:07 PM, D. Joe wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:06:06AM +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
>
>> It must be a sign of a mature organization that it has so much time to
>> devote to this.
> Dealing with the strictures of the law and of various agreements is not, as
> you might cast it, some luxury that we are indulging in.
>
> This is one of the more frustrating things for me in this type of
> discussion, running up against the attitude that the challenges of
> copyrights and licenses are somehow created by, or somehow the fault of,
> those of us who usually are just trying to navigate them as freely as we
> can, trying to make sure that our collaborative peers, and that those
> downstream of us, get the same freedom.
>
> FOSS advocates didn't create copyright, and we certainly didn't create the
> situation where copyright restrictions attach to a work AUTOMATICALLY at the
> time of its creation.[1] Since these restrictions arise automatically, the
> need to have a license to use the works legally (in most cases) also arises
> automatically.
>
> Fortunately, as constraining as the situation is, its basics are also pretty
> clear, so once someone's unfamiliarity is revealed, it can be addressed.
>
> tl;dr: I'm sorry you're just now learning how horrible the default situation
> is, but now that you know, I hope you can continue to work to make it less
> horrible. One way you can do that is by refraining from comments like those
> quoted above.
>
> [1] in the US since it became party to the Berne convention on copyright in
> 1988 (effective 1989)
>
James Cameron
2017-06-15 05:51:44 UTC
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On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 07:20:16AM +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
> This thread still refers to Samson Goddy obtaining a visa to attend
> a Scratch Conference in Bordeaux France. I still have no idea how
> this thread got distracted to discussing details of software
> licensing. The primary issue here is whether or not he can get a
> visa and can attend the conference.

Sorry you missed it, must have been dropped mail or something.

See
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2017-June/054401.html
for the pivot point of distraction into licensing.

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
Samson Goddy
2017-06-13 18:53:23 UTC
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On Jun 13, 2017 7:12 PM, "Sebastian Silva" <***@fuentelibre.org>
wrote:



On 13/06/17 12:50, Samson Goddy wrote:

Your mentioning Facebook, iPhone, Windows, Flash, LinkedIn etc, do not fit
with this agreement, so we would sincerely appreciate if you do not promote
these entities while representing Sugar Labs.

Could you explain more, because i dont understand. And also how did you
think i might breach the agreement?


While your promoting these entities does not breach the wording of the
agreement, I believe it goes against the spirit of it. Please review
information on GNU.org such as the following articles, to understand why
such technologies are distributed in bad faith.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.html
https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary-surveillance.html
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

I still don't understand what you are trying to say. I believe almost
everyone in this community uses Facebook, has LinkedIn account. For the US
people they should have iphones. I barely use windows, maybe when i want to
play fifa or go to the cyber house for internet.

Are you trying to say that i should, throw away my iphone, probably the
macbook i use. Close down my facebook account and possible my LinkedIn too?
And stop playing online games because they are flash?

Is that what you are trying to say?

I read the documentations.. i don't see how i breached those rules. Because
before i came into the community Sugar Labs was already on Facebook,
LinkedIn and Sugarizer was kinda available for Iphone and windows?

Please kind you note where and how i breached those rules?. Why are these
questions targeted to me only? Why i see people and under softwares
understand SFC are using facebook anf LinkedIn to promote their content.

I will be waiting for your replies, because i like learning what i don't
know.



On the other hand, these Sugar Activities (by you) don't have proper
sources available. This actually is a breach of the agreement, and they
should have been removed:

http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759
http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4758

In accordance to the license file on those .xo bundles, I request that you
share the source for the .swf Flash components embedded if you wrote them,
otherwise please make sure they are removed from ASLO.


This was a project i did in 2014.. Because kids using the xo laptops were
actually playing those mentioned games online. I had to port them as a
activity for sugar. I didn't write or own the swf. It is free, there are
versions for those in Android which are free also. So if you think it is
against Sugar Labs culture, i recommend you take it down yourself.

I don't want any arguments.


Regards,
Sebastian


Regards

Samson
Sebastian Silva
2017-06-13 19:19:37 UTC
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Raw Message
On 13/06/17 13:53, Samson Goddy wrote:
>
> This was a project i did in 2014.. Because kids using the xo laptops
> were actually playing those mentioned games online. I had to port them
> as a activity for sugar. I didn't write or own the swf. It is free,
> there are versions for those in Android which are free also.

Clearly you don't understand what Free Software means and so I don't
think you are fit to represent Sugar Labs, in an event or otherwise.
Just my opinion.

> So if you think it is against Sugar Labs culture, i recommend you take
> it down yourself.

It's not against our culture, but our rules
<http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activity_Library/Editors/Policy#Reasons_for_removing>.
As the breacher of these rules, it would be good if you realized your
mistake and fixed it. Otherwise, others will have to fix it for you.
Samson Goddy
2017-06-13 20:01:05 UTC
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Raw Message
On Jun 13, 2017 8:19 PM, "Sebastian Silva" <***@fuentelibre.org>
wrote:



On 13/06/17 13:53, Samson Goddy wrote:


This was a project i did in 2014.. Because kids using the xo laptops were
actually playing those mentioned games online. I had to port them as a
activity for sugar. I didn't write or own the swf. It is free, there are
versions for those in Android which are free also.


Clearly you don't understand what Free Software means and so I don't think
you are fit to represent Sugar Labs, in an event or otherwise. Just my
opinion.

I have been in conferences in some part of Nigeria. Before i say things
about Sugar Labs i always ask people behind it for guidances. Walter has
always helped me to shape my talks. Same goes to other people in the
community.

Also my trip to Europe in July, i have been asking questions too. Because
that what learning is.



So if you think it is against Sugar Labs culture, i recommend you take it
down yourself.


It's not against our culture, but our rules
<http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activity_Library/Editors/Policy#Reasons_for_removing>.
As the breacher of these rules, it would be good if you realized your
mistake and fixed it. Otherwise, others will have to fix it for you.

I believe in learning, i am going to fix it as you stated. I am still new
to all these especially in Africa where they don't practice free
softwares(MS windows domain).

I see these as a challenge that needs fixing. Back in 2014 i didn't really
know how things work. Compare to now, so i am going to see a way to open
the source code for the swf file. If i don't succeed, i will take both
activities down.

Thanks
James Cameron
2017-06-14 08:18:09 UTC
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On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:53:23PM +0100, Samson Goddy wrote:
> This was a project i did in 2014.. Because kids using the xo laptops
> were actually playing those mentioned games online.

Yes, a noble reason. Playing locally instead of online reduces
bandwidth demand. More kids can play.

> I had to port them as a activity for sugar. I didn't write or own
> the swf.

Ah, thanks for that. Until now I thought you had written them,
because that's how activities.sugarlabs.org presented them.

> It is free, there are versions for those in Android which are free
> also.

Can you tell me exactly where you downloaded it from? You see, I'm
having trouble finding where, because there are so many versions.

Once I find out where, I can discover the license.

> So if you think it is against Sugar Labs culture, i recommend you
> take it down yourself.

I'll avoid the culture issue, since we are not homogenous, and stick
to the copyright and license issue.

As far as I can see, you have downloaded the .swf files and attached
the GPLv3+ license to the bundle. You also wrote some really cool
Python code to run Gnash, and you licensed that code as GPLv2+; your
name is on the top line.

Since you did these things, you're responsible for taking them down as
much as anyone. ;-)

Here's the details of the two files;

--

Kunfu-1

Kunfu.swf, but no Kunfu.fla

Kunfu.activity/README.txt says (C)kunfu,

Screenshot says "Legend of the Dragon Fist", and "A Ben Olding Game -
www.benolding.co.uk". I've written to Ben to check the license.

http://www.bikerchicks4u.com/games/game/358/ has the same md5sum and size.

--

Football-1

Football.swf, and Football.fla has a "Saved by Adobe Flash Windows 9.0
build 494 timecount = 1241204734" tag, which could be 2nd May 2009.

README.txt says EatBoom.FLA developed by Innovations for Learning
http://www.innovationsforlearning.org

The same README.txt file is in EatBoom-2 uploaded by Wade Brainerd.

Actually, EatBoom.fla is the same file as Football.fla.

I've not been able to find an online source of Football.swf; too many
choices.

--

I've marked both activities as disabled in activities.sugarlabs.org
until we can resolve this license issue. Thanks for your patience,
and please continue to discuss.

EatBoom-2 does properly credit an author that isn't Wade.

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
James Cameron
2017-06-14 22:54:07 UTC
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Raw Message
I've marked Kunfu as available in activities.sugarlabs.org, after Ben
Olding confirmed he is author of Legend of the Dragon Fist and gave a
license;

"you may use the file, unmodified for free as you see fit as long as
you are not directly selling it. i.e. bundling it on a laptop is fine,
wrapping the game and selling as an app for $5 on the app store is
not."

http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759/

Samson, when you get time, please update the bundle to correctly
attribute author and license, thanks.

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
Samson Goddy
2017-06-14 23:02:19 UTC
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On Jun 14, 2017 11:54 PM, "James Cameron" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

I've marked Kunfu as available in activities.sugarlabs.org, after Ben
Olding confirmed he is author of Legend of the Dragon Fist and gave a
license;

"you may use the file, unmodified for free as you see fit as long as
you are not directly selling it. i.e. bundling it on a laptop is fine,
wrapping the game and selling as an app for $5 on the app store is
not."

http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759/

Samson, when you get time, please update the bundle to correctly
attribute author and license, thanks.

Sure i will look at it this week. I am working on my visa application in
lagos.

Thanks for the research.


--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
Sebastian Silva
2017-06-15 00:05:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Dear James and Samson,

I have disabled distribution of both of the Activities in question from
ASLO, as they don't offer proper licenses or source code.

Please review our acceptable license
<https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Trademark#Approved_licenses> policy.

In summary, an Activity needs to respect learner's freedom to:

0 - Use the program for any purpose
1 - To study how the program works and modify how it works
2 - Freedom to redistribute copies
3 - Freedom to redistribute modified copies

I encourage you to fix them and upload them again.

Thanks and regards,

Sebastian


On 14/06/17 17:54, James Cameron wrote:
> I've marked Kunfu as available in activities.sugarlabs.org, after Ben
> Olding confirmed he is author of Legend of the Dragon Fist and gave a
> license;
>
> "you may use the file, unmodified for free as you see fit as long as
> you are not directly selling it. i.e. bundling it on a laptop is fine,
> wrapping the game and selling as an app for $5 on the app store is
> not."
>
> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4759/
>
> Samson, when you get time, please update the bundle to correctly
> attribute author and license, thanks.
>
James Cameron
2017-06-15 00:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thanks for the license review, Sebastian.

Please also remove

http://activities.sugarlabs.org/activities/4758/football-1.xo
http://activities.sugarlabs.org/activities/4759/kunfu-1.xo
http://download.sugarlabs.org/activities2/org.sugarlabs.Football_v1.xo
http://download.sugarlabs.org/activities2/org.sugarlabs.Football_1428059038.xo
http://download.sugarlabs.org/activities2/org.sugarlabs.Football_1426574005.xo

And after 24 hours, check mirror sites, e.g.

http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/sugarlabs/activities/4758/football-1.xo
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/sugarlabs/activities/4759/kunfu-1.xo
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/sugarlabs/activities2/org.sugarlabs.Football_v1.xo
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/sugarlabs/activities2/org.sugarlabs.Football_1428059038.xo
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/sugarlabs/activities2/org.sugarlabs.Football_1426574005.xo

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
James Cameron
2017-06-14 08:52:21 UTC
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On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:53:23PM +0100, Samson Goddy wrote:
> Please kind you note where and how i breached those rules?. Why are
> these questions targeted to me only? Why i see people and under
> softwares understand SFC are using facebook anf LinkedIn to promote
> their content.

Let me try to explain.

You are you. You are not Sugar Labs. But you will appear, in other
people's eyes, to be Sugar Labs during your trip. For which,
congratulations, by the way. So whether you want to or not, you will
appear to represent Sugar Labs.

Now Sugar Labs has an agreement with The Software Freedom Conservancy,
which I've just read through, and Sebastian signed it, and the
agreement requires that the project will be free software (2.b), and
defines free software not in terms of price but in terms of rights to
copy, modify, redistribute, and to improve (B).

Sugar Labs does not and should not promote things that are non-free.

So when you do speak, remember to make it clear to your listeners when
you are speaking on your own behalf or on behalf of Sugar Labs.

You will be two people.

As far as I can see, there's no problem with you-as-you mentioning the
non-free services you use, provided you are careful not to mention
them too much when you-as-sugar-labs are speaking.

I've faced the same problems myself, when speaking at conferences or
meetings.

I've faced the same problem while working for OLPC; how can you know
that this isn't OLPC talking? Because I say it is me talking.

As for why you, why now; it's because of your trip, and because
Sebastian has made a written promise in that agreement. It has to do
with long term responsibility and transparency.

Hope that helps. Have fun!

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
Tabitha Roder
2017-06-14 06:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Can I vote? I think it would be great for you to attend! An opportunity not
to be missed.

Nāku noa, nā Tabitha

On 13 June 2017 at 00:07, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> To those members who haven't voted.. could you please come and vote. It is
> very disappointing that this motion is still pending. I am to travel to
> lagos tomorrow and i really need to know what will happen to the motion.
>
> Samson G
>
> On Jun 9, 2017 11:30 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 7, 2017 7:59 AM, "Adam Holt" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>
>> Lionel, Sameer, Laura & Ignacio,
>>
>> Can you please try to vote yes or no
>>
>>
>> Or please formally abstain, but do vote your opinion please!
>>
>> (As you we're elected to do, setting a tone for forward action — in
>> whatever direction your conscience takes you — Thanks All!)
>>
>>
>> today
>>
>> as Samson would need to fly to Lagos immediately this wkd (or Monday
>> latest, to get everything in motion) so does need to know what's happening
>> ASAP as the wkd approaches, *Thanks All for your consideration!*
>>
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2017 3:28 PM, "Walter Bender" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Adam Holt <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Samson Goddy <***@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I will take sole responsibility for the lost and if it happen, i
>>>>> didn't get the visa.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My apologies I misunderstood earlier, among the many emails. That
>>>> makes things very clear, thank you Samson. Be it then resolved:
>>>>
>>>> "To support Samson Goddy's attending 2017 Scratch conference in
>>>> Bordeaux, France (19-21 July 2017) to strengthen our relationship with
>>>> Scratch, Sugar Labs should allocate up to $500 in support of his obtaining
>>>> a French visa, including (as nec) travel from Port Harcourt to Lagos for as
>>>> many days as required. Any receipts to this end, Samson will submit to the
>>>> Software Freedom Conservancy. It is understood that if the French
>>>> government very unfortunately turns down his visa application, preventing
>>>> him from attending Bordeaux, these lost funds will be borne by Samson
>>>> Goddy."
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance to any board members who can second this motion,
>>>> thereby helping Samson/Scratch/Sugar move forward!
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>>> Sugar-***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>> While I think it is unconscionable for Sugar Labs not to shoulder the
>>> responsibility of the visa on behalf of one of our members, I will
>>> nonetheless second the motion, bad precedent and all, as it seems to be the
>>> only way to get unstuck.
>>>
>>> -walter
>>>
>>> --
>>> Walter Bender
>>> Sugar Labs
>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLOBs mailing list
>> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/slobs
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> ***@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
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