Discussion:
sugar-meeting notes today
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Thomas Gilliard
2017-06-28 16:25:30 UTC
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<Rishabh42> Hrishi, lets talk here
<Hrishi> yes Rishabh42
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, so how do you suggest I fix that problem? I was told
that this project is getting a lot of interest, so people do fix things
even if I don't ask for their help
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : what problem. Yes, but don't stop someone fixing
something if they can.
<Hrishi> It will help us concentrate on something else
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, exactly, that's what Quozl had also said
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, so what is that something else that I should work
on, to avoid clashing with other developers
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : In that case, we need to change your proposal
<Hrishi> The issues are too easy to solve currently.
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, so I should fix some right away, and also work on
'something else'
<Hrishi> Yeah, Rishabh42, that'd be great.
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : first concentrate on making the image stable
<Rishabh42> alright, and how can that be done?
<Rishabh42> it is pretty stable IMO, though we need to fix the login issue
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : we haven't tested it yet, so we shouldnt call it
stable. There are a few issues
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, okay, I'll test it and write a report, what all
things should I test?
<Hrishi> Activites is on of the main things.
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, I've also downloaded SoAS, will test that too to
know which activities are required to be added
<Hrishi> Great
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, I had tested the activities and had also addressed
the issues in my mail to devel which had the link to my image
<Rishabh42> that's why I believe that it is stable ;-)
<Hrishi> Not all activities though. The Write bug was probably a known bug
<Rishabh42> yeah, there weren't any new issues with the activities, all
had previously been addressed
<Rishabh42> rather, Browse was fixed
<Hrishi> Hmm
<Rishabh42> brb, 15 mins
<satellit> physics fails to start
* llaske has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0/20170608105825])
<satellit> see log activities
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, I'm back
<Rishabh42> satellit, thanks, I had seen that, was getting a different
error than you as far as I remember, will test again though
<Hrishi> satellit: it's reported. Workaround is to use dsfg branch
<Hrishi> satellit: or are you reporting something else?
* tarunsinghal92 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
<satellit> no
<satellit> found that if I dowloaded a .xo file had to use
sugar-install-bundle ....(filename)
* abhijitp (***@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.139.122.114) has joined
#sugar-meeting
<satellit> from default download location
Frederick Grose
2017-06-28 22:24:40 UTC
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Post by Thomas Gilliard
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, lets talk here
<Hrishi> yes Rishabh42
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, so how do you suggest I fix that problem? I was told
that this project is getting a lot of interest, so people do fix things
even if I don't ask for their help
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : what problem. Yes, but don't stop someone fixing
something if they can.
<Hrishi> It will help us concentrate on something else
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, exactly, that's what Quozl had also said
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, so what is that something else that I should work on,
to avoid clashing with other developers
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : In that case, we need to change your proposal
<Hrishi> The issues are too easy to solve currently.
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, so I should fix some right away, and also work on
'something else'
<Hrishi> Yeah, Rishabh42, that'd be great.
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : first concentrate on making the image stable
<Rishabh42> alright, and how can that be done?
<Rishabh42> it is pretty stable IMO, though we need to fix the login issue
<Hrishi> Rishabh42 : we haven't tested it yet, so we shouldnt call it
stable. There are a few issues
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, okay, I'll test it and write a report, what all things
should I test?
<Hrishi> Activites is on of the main things.
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, I've also downloaded SoAS, will test that too to know
which activities are required to be added
<Hrishi> Great
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, I had tested the activities and had also addressed the
issues in my mail to devel which had the link to my image
<Rishabh42> that's why I believe that it is stable ;-)
<Hrishi> Not all activities though. The Write bug was probably a known bug
<Rishabh42> yeah, there weren't any new issues with the activities, all
had previously been addressed
<Rishabh42> rather, Browse was fixed
<Hrishi> Hmm
<Rishabh42> brb, 15 mins
<satellit> physics fails to start
* llaske has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 54.0/20170608105825])
<satellit> see log activities
<Rishabh42> Hrishi, I'm back
<Rishabh42> satellit, thanks, I had seen that, was getting a different
error than you as far as I remember, will test again though
<Hrishi> satellit: it's reported. Workaround is to use dsfg branch
<Hrishi> satellit: or are you reporting something else?
* tarunsinghal92 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
<satellit> no
<satellit> found that if I dowloaded a .xo file had to use
sugar-install-bundle ....(filename)
#sugar-meeting
<satellit> from default download location
​This recent bug may be relevent:
https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/4977​
James Cameron
2017-06-28 23:05:03 UTC
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On the team's question of making the image stable.

(Probably they mean fixing problems, although for me "stable" is a
software engineering term meaning "unchanging; no longer fixing the
problems".)

It will be up to the team to decide the method for fixing problems;
the choices are either;

1. applying fixes to the image builder itself; but these fixes will
be lost as soon as packages are upgraded in the field, which makes the
image only useful as an example, not as an ongoing system,

2. applying fixes to activity files during image build; but these
fixes will be lost as soon as packages are upgraded in the field,

3. applying fixes to packages before image build; but not all desired
activities are packaged, and maintaining separate packages to Debian
is not going to be sustainable,

4. applying fixes to packages in the Debian archive; but this
requires your engagement with the Debian project,

5. applying fixes to activities in Sugar Labs GitHub; but this
requires waiting for the activity to be released, and then the Debian
package to be released.

My recommendations to the team are;

a. do not use SoaS as the basis for activities to be preinstalled,
since SoaS activities are determined by whether they are packaged for
Fedora, but rather use Debian packaged activities only,

b. preinstall the old version of Physics from the Debian archive, and
work through the Debian project to get that updated, and meanwhile
don't support the latest version of Physics as a download,

c. do not start into maintaining separate packages to Debian, as the
skills just aren't there in the team and it will take weeks to gain
those skills.

Comments?
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
James Cameron
2017-06-29 01:37:31 UTC
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Post by James Cameron
a. do not use SoaS as the basis for activities to be preinstalled,
since SoaS activities are determined by whether they are packaged for
Fedora, but rather use Debian packaged activities only,
Comparing what is available to what is installed in the image, making
a list of what isn't installed but could be;

# apt-cache search sugar-[a-z0-9]*-activity | cut -f1 -d' ' | sort > a
# dpkg-query -W | egrep sugar-[a-z0-9]*-activity | awk '{print $1;}' > b
# grep --invert --file b a

Result is;

sugar-calculate-activity
sugar-etoys-activity
sugar-irc-activity
sugar-memorize-activity

In a brief test;

sugar-calculate works okay.

sugar-etoys-activity works, though it does not quickly fullscreen to
the correct dimensions; this is a problem generally and not specific
to Raspberry Pi.

sugar-irc-activity does not start, needs a bug report raised with
Debian, is merely missing simplejson, which was fixed in version 11.

sugar-memorize-activity works okay.

Other activities of interest;

sugar-turtleart-activity was in Debian Jessie but is not in Debian
Stretch, nor in Sid.

sugar-physics-activity was in Debian Wheezy and is in Debian Sid.
Post by James Cameron
b. preinstall the old version of Physics from the Debian archive, and
work through the Debian project to get that updated, and meanwhile
don't support the latest version of Physics as a download,
Therefore I withdraw the suggestion to use the old version of Physics,
it would be better to avoid the activity or use the version in
Debian Sid.
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
Tony Anderson
2017-06-29 04:44:54 UTC
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Hi James

When you use the word activities, do you mean Sugar Activities?

At least in the original Sugar design, each activity is to supply its
own dependent packages in the bundle. The 'owner' of the activity is
expected to test the activity to verify that it works with a new Sugar
release. In addition, activities generally are expected not to be
release dependent but that new releases of Sugar also support them.

There may be certain activities such as Record that are inherently part
of a Sugar release, but except for these there should be no connection
between an activity bundle and the build system.

If the activities are kept separate from specific Sugar releases, the
problems you cite should not apply. Users of a Sugar release can install
activity bundles from ASLO as needed.

Tony
Post by James Cameron
On the team's question of making the image stable.
(Probably they mean fixing problems, although for me "stable" is a
software engineering term meaning "unchanging; no longer fixing the
problems".)
It will be up to the team to decide the method for fixing problems;
the choices are either;
1. applying fixes to the image builder itself; but these fixes will
be lost as soon as packages are upgraded in the field, which makes the
image only useful as an example, not as an ongoing system,
2. applying fixes to activity files during image build; but these
fixes will be lost as soon as packages are upgraded in the field,
3. applying fixes to packages before image build; but not all desired
activities are packaged, and maintaining separate packages to Debian
is not going to be sustainable,
4. applying fixes to packages in the Debian archive; but this
requires your engagement with the Debian project,
5. applying fixes to activities in Sugar Labs GitHub; but this
requires waiting for the activity to be released, and then the Debian
package to be released.
My recommendations to the team are;
a. do not use SoaS as the basis for activities to be preinstalled,
since SoaS activities are determined by whether they are packaged for
Fedora, but rather use Debian packaged activities only,
b. preinstall the old version of Physics from the Debian archive, and
work through the Debian project to get that updated, and meanwhile
don't support the latest version of Physics as a download,
c. do not start into maintaining separate packages to Debian, as the
skills just aren't there in the team and it will take weeks to gain
those skills.
Comments?
James Cameron
2017-06-29 06:05:21 UTC
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There doesn't seem to be a relationship between what you have said and
the mailing list thread that you've posted to. Please check again for
relevance and make the connection clearer.

However, to address one of your points; you said an activity is to
supply its own dependent packages in the bundle.

False.

An activity does not have to supply its own dependent packages in the
bundle.

There are a set of dependent packages provided by the Sugar Platform
Stack which an activity author should not bundle. These are called
the Platform Components and are listed on the Wiki for versions 0.88
to to 0.96 of Sugar, after which the list was no longer maintained.

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Platform_Components

Since the GsoC team are building a Raspberry Pi image with Debian, the
platform components are not declared, and must be resolved by hand, or
as a result of binary package dependencies declared by the Debian
source packages.

Also, when Fedora developers package an activity, or Debian developers
package an activity, or when OLPC do so for their Ubuntu system, the
bundled dependencies are stripped and discarded, and distribution
dependencies are declared in the packaging metadata.

Of the problems I cited, only the IRC activity was affected by
dependencies; and that was because the Debian package is IRC-8 from
2010, but the latest is IRC-12 from 2015. The platform component was
Python, which removed simplejson and replaced it with json. Gonzalo
fixed this in 2014, but the Debian package has not taken the fix.
Bundling Python into the activity would be a costly solution to a
trivial problem. I don't think we need the IRC activity, I mentioned
it only because it was one of the four available but not yet included.

In the thread, where you saw me refer to sugar-NAME-activity, that is
a reference to the Debian package for the Sugar activity NAME.
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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